Sometimes things don't work out exactly as I plan. I idealize super-spiritual events and pray for ground-shaking God-moments... they don't always come.Two weeks ago I went up to Portland for a friend's birthday party. I knew there would be homosexuals and Buddhists, liberals and Darwinists there – all the most interesting kinds of people I seldom encounter in my church.
I planned on bringing up an assignment I was working on for a seminary class: designing a postmodern church plant. In my mind I envisioned exciting, stimulating conversation – delving into the very nature of faith and community. I wondered about the fascinating perspectives I might encounter…
Little of the spiritual talk I had hoped for took place. Whether led by fear, complacency, or the Holy Spirit, I couldn’t find the proper time to introduce my class project. After cutting up a cake, we went out for drinks and somehow ended up at a gay nightclub.
And when I say "gay," I mean really gay!
We made our way through a large, open bar area that connected to a dance floor. Men were everywhere, dancing, laughing and drinking; an occasional woman stood out prominently in a few of the groups. We entered a lounge area in the back that was fairly well lit, comfortable, with couches, cushy chairs and even a Christmas tree.
What struck me sitting there with my three straight friends (our gay companions stayed on the dance floor) was the unspoken aura that filled the room. It wasn't happiness or fun or even sadness. It was more like partial relief. A tense undercurrent still seemed to permeate the air. These men looked and acted like distrustful refugees.
As we talked, I watched two young men enter, glancing around the room. They said nothing to each other as they carefully sat down in two overstuffed chairs facing one another. I thought I caught a brief look of ease as they began to adapt to their surroundings, and if I could have put words to what I witnessed they would have said, "I think it’s okay. We're safe now."
I was in a bomb shelter. A refugee camp. A place where the wounded and broken came to hide and confide - to find solace or escape.
You can say what you want to about the theology or legality of homosexuality. I’m initiating no-such discussion. Instead, I raise the question: if not a gay bar, where could these men go to be broken, wounded and imperfect? Again, regardless of theology, can the church be a place for solice? Can we let these hurting souls recoup in a safe, respectful, gentle atmosphere? Or must we break down their walls of sin before we allow any relaxation or decompression to occur?
I don't think a gay nightclub is a good place for a gay man to find healing, wholeness or safety. Yes, he can be gay without fear of judgment in such an environment, but no one can be transparent in a meat market - gay or straight. No one can put down the facade when they're being checked out and sized up by potential suitors (one of the reasons I think many church youth and young adult groups are so dysfunctional - but that's a whole separate can of worms).
Maybe we could take a little break from the gay topic in church. Maybe if we let people come in and feel safe, the Holy Spirit would do some amazing, powerful things. Maybe we jump the gun on the Holy Spirit. Maybe we don't trust the Spirit to speak without our vulgar voices chiming in at a whim.
I don’t think this issue is simple or black-and-white. I don’t even think it’s ready to be resolved in our Christian culture yet. I also don’t think it would be appropriate for every Christian to walk into a gay bar – maybe it wasn’t appropriate for me. But right or wrong, I’d rather take chances to discover these refugees in hiding than stay so safe that I never meet the people I once called “lost.”
33 comments:
I really enjoy your writings.
Interesting blog, keep it up.
I saw this post over on the ooze. I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I had not thought of a club as a refugee camp.
I guess the million dollar questions is: how do we make the church a haven for homosexuals?
I, too, read your post on the ooze. I've thought, for many years now, that if Jesus were to come and walk the earth in our time that he would have probably never darkened the door of a church building. Most of the accounts of Jesus in the Bible are of Him seeking out "sinners" where they are. He sought them out not to condemn or judge them but to love them. I commend you for walking into the refugee camp with out judgement on your mind. It is hard for me to do that, especially in the situation that you talk about in your blog. Maybe one day I will get there.
a friend/ co-worker of mine planned to meet me one friday night at a small coffee shop in our large city. as it turned out, he changed plans on me at the last minute, and invited me to meet him and his gay partner at a local gay bar instead. being a Christian, i went through the typical hyper-analysis of: what does this say of me? what will this communicate to him? will i be comfortable or uber-awkward as, probably, the only female there?! being my normal impulsive self, and hoping that maybe, just a bit, I was being led by the Spirit, i decided to change plans from a steamy latte to something a bit stronger. my perceptions were similar in that i met a lot of lonely people finding meaning and community in the only safe and authentic environment they could find. it was, perhaps, the time and place that they felt most real in their entire week, and i am saddened that these men, in their most ‘real’ moments, fought for the love and acceptance of others fighting for the same thing. (And thus perpetuating the hurts and wounds!) And, even amidst feeling ‘real,’ most gravitated to escape their realities in intoxication and gambling. Like you said, it had the distinct feel of a meat market.
however, what struck me most deeply is what it did to my friend that I entered his stomping ground in risking my own comfort zones. (How many of our Christian gatherings are generating the same feel as this bar?!) it blew my mind, but this “gay” friend of mine- who is on the journey of faith, trying hard to find Jesus in the midst of a dismal world- stepped into his identity as a male Child of God more that night than I’d ever seen before. As I entered his ground, he took responsibility for me (his female friend) in a way that I really believe was glorifying to God! He seemed confident and open in a beautiful way, and showing him love by coming that evening seemed to solidify our friendship by establishing a stronger foundation of trust and unconditional love and acceptance.
I don’t think that we, in “Christians cliques,” need to start gathering in big groups and barging into others’ safe places. However, as God opens doors for us to enter the ‘safe places’ that people congregate, it is our responsibility to nurture those relationships and enter—compassionately yet confidently—into their stomping grounds. Of course we must not compromise our own integrity, but we should feel comfortable wherever we are called to be, remembering that Love will necessarily lead us to the darkest places of this earth to bring and bear Light and Hope. I believe it means a great deal to just “be” in the places where hurting humanity flocks. And not only do we gather in bars, but in coffee shops, malls, at concerts, in public schools and workplaces. Realizing that we are often on the stomping grounds of the hurting, or that it takes very little effort to get there, should inspire us to open our eyes to these situations. In realizing that we are already nearby (and don’t have to change our lifestyle much to be present), we have remarkable opportunity to share Jesus by modeling abundant life in the midst of sorrow and suffering. I read a beautiful article yesterday, which reminded me that Christians do not “escape” humanity simply because we bear such an incredible title. Rather, we have in Christ a means to cope with humanity...to bear the hurts and wounds that come not only into the lives of those around us, but to our lives as well. And when we worship and serve God throughout our pain, in front of others who have deep hurt, Jesus is our aura and others may be refreshed, even indirectly, by His fragrance.
sorry for the length of my "comment..." but thank you for your honest post. i also read your article on the ooze and it so paralleled my own experience that it just began flowing.
Wow, thank you for that most recent post (above). What a wonderful balance you present!
If you're interested, I would really suggest reading Jim Henderson's book, "AKA Lost." It's right in line with the kind of passive evangelism we're talking about... and I don't mean "passive," negatively.
Peter
I came across your article in The OOZE, and i had to let you know that you are right on target.
I am a married Christian with two children, and I have had only one issue with the church we attend. It is the fact that they can not see what i believe you captured so well in your final paragraph.
I am a big believer in the power of the Holy Spirit. I honestly believe that the only way to act and react to a homosexual person is with Love. Bring them into the church and let the Holy Spirit guide them and judge them just as the Spirit juedges me.
It is not my job or duty to point out any scripture that may or may not call into question their choices. No one points them out to me when I curse or speed or juedge another person.
Love is truly the answer. Seeking solice in a nightclub is not the place for anyone gay or not. Bringing them into the body of Christ is the real answer.
boyinthebands,
Thanks for your visit and comments. Actually, a gay friend of mine (non-Christian) had very similar things to say to me.
He said it felt like I was looking at human beings "in a petri dish..." a little too condescending for his taste, which was not at all my intention.
I think it's important to contextualize the article for my intended audience - that is, those who at this point could not even manage being in the same room with a homosexual. Or, would not know how to make the church welcoming in any way.
Not the right audience for theOOZE? I'm not so sure, as I've run into many funamentalists there (to their credit, at least they're listening).
You're definitely right about the "otherness" I speak with, and I apologize - personally - for that. It's hard, coming out of the conservative churchy background, to know how to "appropriately" approach this issue.
As I said, I don't even feel the need, personally, to broach the issue of whether it's sin or not. That's not because it's not an important question to ask (as I'm sure it is especially vital for you) but because most or many Christians aren't ready for that. I'd first like to talk about human beings (again, I may have sounded condescending, which was unintended).
Finally, in "starting where they are," as you said, I think different environments and different situations call for different tactics and mindsets. I don't think a sexually charged "club" is good for anyone, and the atmosphere inside certainly was as I described it. At least, to my perception. I spend time with several gay men, and do not consider them to be refugees... this club gave off a certain atmosphere that seemed undeniable.
In any case, please forgive any arrogance or condescension I may have intoned. This is new territory for a lot of us, and your comments and worldview are very helpful as we try to wrap our brains (or hearts, rather) around this giant ghettoized issue.
Blessings,
Peter
I have to agree with BoyInTheBands that you're romanticizing and objectifying the "tragic gays" (calling them broken and wounded). It feels to me like terrific self-indulgence to extend your brand of sentimental Christian pity to this community of gay men (a la Sally Struthers standing with the starving African child with the distended stomach) while utterly failing to acknowledge the brokenness, sin, and woundedness present in the typical, ostensibly "straight" Christian congregation. How many of your own church folk do you think are porn-addicted? Or committing adultery? Or contemplating divorce (certainly a sin in Jesus' eyes, who spoke nary a word about homosexuality)? My point is that you treated the gay bar as a laboratory for judgment-masked-as-piety, while treating your own congregation as some kind of sin-free alternative.
We're ALL refugees in Christ, my dear. I read a lot of scorn and superiority in your efforts toward compassionate observation.
Wow, I'm very sorry I communicated that. I think if you'll read my other posts, and particularly, if you visit my other blog (www.emergingchristianity.blogspot.com) you'll find that I harbor no false notions about my own church. They ARE a tragic mess, and I literally cry over their dysfuctionality and lack of love.
I think we all enter this conversation (the gay one, the faith one, any conversation I suppose) with a lot of presumptions and a lot of baggage.
I realize I am a foreigner to the gay issue. I realize I don't "get it," but that's the point of this blog: trying to understand the people my church, my religion, has missed. It's going to be messy for awhile, I can assure you.
Again, while I have no desire or intentions of defending myself, I think the one thing I'd like to reiterate is that I do NOT in any way defend or condone the church (my church or any other) nor do I hold false pretense that any of them are made up of whole and healthy people.
All of us are broken. All of us are confused. And there's no way I would invite any homosexual, any buddhist or muslim, any feminist or darwinist into my church. They would be treated badly - this to my great sorrow.
Forgive me for mispoken works. This truly is a messy journey.
Sorry to be so harsh, and I appreciate your blog.
Thanks PeaceBang. I hope we can be friends :)
great blog-post. Reminds me a little of xxxchurch... I'm not sure if you've read about it or heard about it. As a man who struggles with lust; the emerging church is hopeful for me in talking about these kinds of issues rather than brushing them under the rug.
peace...
Blue,
I understand the perceived implication. I do not clarify because I am still a little gray on this myself, and expect to remain so for some time. However, I will say that my intended implication was that these men were wounded because of the Church, not because of their gay lifestyles.
Don't know if that sounds any better, but I feel like my responsibility is to take ownership for the sins of my little subculture, not to decree whether homosexuality is right or wrong.
Sounds like a cop-out, I'm sure, but as Brian McLaren says more eloquently than I, any answer to the gay question is unsatisfactory and bad because at this point, any answer hurts people. My intention is not to hurt, but to initiate healing. I'm clumsy in it, so I understand that my words may hurt, in spite of themselves. For that I beg grace.
Peter
Mennonite Pacifist,
(love the name)
I'm familiar with XXXChurch, and all-to-familiar with the spiritual problem of lust, as is nearly every man, I believe.
Thanks for your visit and encouragement.
Thanks for your post, it brings freshness to co-believers. As you may read on my site, I am a 34 y/o Christian, struggling with homosexuality issues since my early teens.
Honestly, I do also ask myself how the Church should face the reality of gayness in this world without compromising our faith. As someone who experienced the lifestyle, I have to say that you are right on your perceptions. Gay people are broken people. I would ask myself "are THEY the only ones broken?" as far as I know, there are many other broken people, who sin differently, htat's all.
Shouldn't we approach gay people as broken people to broken people? wouldn't this make a huge difference and make the Church a safer place? Isn't the Cross the place where we are all equal?
From the culture I come, being a Christian means, unfortunately, a concept of holiness that is not attainable, and it is a society of masks. This is the time to end with the "feeling better" than the neighbour, and take out the masks.
I needed 20 yrs ago someone telling me the truth of Chrisitian life: that healing of homosexuality is not magic or instantly; that deliveration from sin and inner healing is a journey; with good and bad moments, but that there will be Jesus and the Church to accompany me in the journey. I needed to listen that whatever I do/feel is not THE WORST thing on earth, and that the Cross was big enough to carry my burden. I needed to know that they would not compromise faith, but could minister my needs ... took me 17 yrs of my life to find the right help ...
What Gospel are we preaching? What gospel should we preach? The easy one of "Come to Christ and all things of your life will be solved"? or a deeper message of a journey with Jesus?
Apologies if this was way to long. Thanks for reading and pointing out such an important subject.
Be blessed,
TOR
Peter,
Thank you for sharing your incredible experience and it seems the Spirit is leading you to the right road of understanding the depth of the love and compassion of Jesus for all His children.
I am a gay Christian who has come to understand that Jesus' love is even greater than any of us has ever imagined. Because of Him, even I can be a child of the King.
It is a tragedy the way the Church has made membership requirements for people to clean up before it will allow anyone to enter the Kingdom of God, whom by the way Jesus has already set free.
The Church doesn't realize the spiritual damage they have done to gay men and women. It is the Church who has kept and continues to keep away God's people from coming to Him.
But I trust that Jesus will reveal to the world, His love which has no bounds.
God bless you on your journey
Edrick
www.epistle.us
And one more thing.
It is ONLY Jesus who is our safe haven.
Not the church.
Edric,
Of course I believe we can agree to disagree. There is one thing ... since the Church is in a way Christ on the earth, it should and must be a safe place for those struggling e.g. with unwanted same-sex-attraction, and seeking for support in their journey out. It should be safe for gays to come to church without the feeling of being condemned or judged, as well. The Church is a community of people, expected to give God's love abundantly, to confort those who mourn, to heal the sick and the broken hearted.
I have visited your site, and obviously we have different philosophical approaches, but I believe we can have a fruitful dialogue.
Be blessed,
TOR
Hi Tor,
Yes we can agree to disagree. I am a strong believer in that. And I do agree that the Church SHOULD be a safe place for ALL people, but because it is run by people….it ISN’T.
And as long as some people think other people have flaws or don’t understand things like they understand things, or should agree to do things one way…then the one group will always be in confllict with the other.
And the issue with Church is …many people look to the Church for answers…to solve their issues…instead of the Lord.
The Church points to itself…when it should point to Jesus.
Mind you…I’m not against the church. It is important for people to come together in community, but as fellow Christians all struggling together, not as people trying to keep each other in line.
Attending many churches and knowing how they are…everyone in the church seems to have the answer to someone else’s life. Yet Church people are not perfect…they do gossip, judge, control…in the name of God. And because of this fear of being yourself and trying to live “righteously”…people in church smile a lot.. masking their struggles…should another Christian find out. Everyone likes to advice someone else how to live a Christian life, but none of us wants to be the one being corrected.
The Church seeks to control in areas that the Lord is really in charge of.
And I agree with the bbaltrus in the above comment. Love is the answer.
So whether you agree that being gay is right or wrong…to me is actually irrelevant.
Because as people we will always disagree about how our lives as Christians should be…but I think that no matter whether anyone is gay or not, all Christians are called to love each other without judgment through the Holy Spirit..
Our goal is not to try to get each other to be like each other…but to point to the Lord and support each other on our journey with the Lord wherever it leads.
So as a gay person, if you have a different philosophy, I think that is between you and the Lord and the most important thing is that you are seeking Him and following Him in your journey.
I have been on your path Tor, trying to deny being gay…and it only ended in torment and psychological anguish which lead to anger at God.
I was consumed with my inability to change my sexual orientation…no matter how much a pleaded with God. And it was ONLY when I gave my life to God even though I was gay that I have become more spiritually healthy, fruitful and life has become wonderful and I am at peace with God.
I have been in a monogamous relationship for 10 years with my partner who is ALSO Christian.
We both serve the Lord together.
And serving God is not about controlling the wild animal in us…but just following the Lord’s commandments to Love God and Love our neighbor. Because controlling your “sinful nature” focuses on yourself ONLY. It's only about you.
Churches have created Christians who spend their lives trying to live correctly and avoid sin, instead of getting out there as Pete has experienced…and learning about his neighbor…so he can love them to Christ.
When we give ourselves over to the Lord, the wild animal…is soothed by Him.
Loving your neighbor focuses on someone else.
In the process of loving, you heal yourself and become restored to who God meant for you to be.
I have discovered that by letting go and being myself in the Lord, He has given me joy, faithfulness has blossomed and I see His hand in everything now. His Spirit is present and He answers prayer. It is amazing. I can only LIFT UP HIS NAME.
How is it…if God is against homosexuality…that God would grant me and the many gay Christians I know… His Spirit?
I have seen God answer, heal, love gay Christians. And they are still gay.
Of course I’ve heard everyone say “it is the spirit of the devil”, etc….but I don’t believe the devil
has an interest in bringing people to Jesus.
Satan’s goal is divide people so they will be distracted from serving God and our neighbors.
And since the Epistle website…I have heard from gay people who have been run off by the church, psychologically damaged, shunned by their family and friends…wandering aimlessly…COME BACK TO JESUS!
And I regularly meet gay men and women who are bitter, downcast and hopeless and when they realized the God accepts them as they are…they can finally unload their burden on Him. And I’ve seen them have joy and freedom in Christ and their faith grows.
That to me is the hand of God.
The church doesn’t get it. Jesus says not to judge, but the Church continues to do that.
I myself stayed away from church because who wants to go to a place where the people think you are off.
You know their love is conditional…if you follow their instructions to be like them.
They have that look in their eyes when they look at you.
They smile, but you know they are looking at you with fear in their eyes and a bad taste in their mouth.
Remember: “Who are you to judge the servant of another”
I have found that God is more gracious, more understanding and more compassionate than we can even imagine Him to be.
That is why ALL OF US whether straight or gay have come to Jesus in the first place.
Because Jesus has proven Himself faithful and His love AMAZING.
So if you disagree with me, that’s fine.
Because I know that whatever your journey is Tor, I know that as long as you are following Him, you are in His good hands.
That we can agree on.
Blessings to you.
Edrick
www.epistle.us
Wow, Edrick and Tor, I just want to thank you both for your thoughtful, gentle dialogue. The positions each of you approach each other from are potentially far more inflammatory than myself dealing "theoretically" from the outside.
I believe the Kingdom sings praise when differing opinions meet in love. As Tor said, "obviously we have different philosophical approaches, but I believe we can have a fruitful dialogue."
And as Edrick affirmed, "Because I know that whatever your journey is Tor, I know that as long as you are following Him, you are in His good hands. That we can agree on."
Blessings to you both, my brothers. I pray that such attitudes begin to transform the spiritual landscape of the Church.
peter,
i'm amazed at your humility, and encouraged by your willingness to look so honestly at your life and your biases. that's the foundation for a vital faith. i found this post on the ooze, and thought it was great . . . but i've been much more intrigued by the dialogue that's occurred in these comments. i think it's great that Christians are FINALLY starting to talk about this calmly - and disarming themselves. granted, the arms have had a purpose, b/c many have been hurt by the lack of compassion from the Church's end, but it's so nice to see people like yourself willing to gain a fresh perspective.
What does the Bible say about homosexuality?
There are those who like to say that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Various verses are cited (out of context) and the verses that people use to show that homosexuality is wrong are explained away. The world wants to change God's words and meanings into something more suitable to its sinful desires. Nevertheless, the truth stands: The Bible condemns homosexuality as a sin. Let's look at what it says.
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible. It goes against the created order of God. He created Adam and then made a woman. This is what God has ordained and it is what is right. Unlike other sins, homosexuality has a severe judgment administered by God Himself. This judgment is simple: They are given over to their passions. That means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins (Romans 1:18ff). As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing. Without an awareness of their sinfulness, there will be no repentance and trusting in Jesus. Without Jesus, they will have no forgiveness. Without forgiveness, there is no salvation.
What should be the Christian's Response to the Homosexual?
Just because someone is a homosexual does not mean that we cannot love him (or her) or pray for him (her). Homosexuality is a sin and like any other sin, it needs to be dealt with in the only way possible. It needs to be laid at the cross, repented of, and never done again.
As a Christian, you should pray for the salvation of the homosexual the same you would any other person in sin. The homosexual is still made in the image of God -- even though he is in grave sin. Therefore, you should show him same dignity as anyone else you come in contact with. However, this does not mean that you are to approve of their sin. Don't compromise your witness for a socially acceptable opinion that is void of godliness.
Unfortunately, I think this last post is what turns so many seekers off to Christianity: a list of bullet-pointed Bible verses.
Not that we mustn't look to Scripture for guidance - me must!
But I don't see anything productive or beneficial in a conversation by shutting it all down with a few carefully chosen verses. This is far more complicated, dynamic, and multifaceted than a "The Bible Says This: Open and Shut Case!" argument acknowledges.
Are you open and shutting my case. Is my view point not welcome. Am I the evil in this world. Lets leave this dialogue open to all even those who oppose your views. You say that the Bible verses shut down the conversation, Why? We shouldn't let them shut done conversation but try to understand what is said to better understand God's desires for us. I think the Bible has many more answer than we give credit. How would you know Christ without it. Its the history of Jesus' love.
Why the label? I don't understand why people even people who are gay label themselves. I will hear people say Im a gay christian?? Aren't you a Child of God first then there are things you do? Don't label yourselves: I'm an alcoholic, I'm a porn addict, I'm a Homaphobe. These are not who you are. One test of this is what would Jesus say you are?? would Jesus say Oh Bobby's an alcoholic. NO he would say Bobby's my child I love him and he has a problem drinking. I believe what we label ourselves can have a powerful impact on how we act. So if you are a person who believes Jesus died for your sins. Label yourself a Child of God. Thats what you are First. It seems christian people gay or straight label themself wrong.
Anonymous,
No, forgive me for implying I was "opening and shutting your case." But I don't like the language of "case" period - Law language. Turning theological dialogue into judicial rhetoric.
Your view is welcome. But the impression I have (which may be unfair but I've been down this road so many times...) is that you have scanned the attached comments from other posters, and instead of engaging and offering value to those other perspectives, you chose to offer a bunch of handpicked Bible verses to counter homosexuality.
This is a modernistic approach to Holy Scripture: disecting it (and when we disect living creatures, we will inevitably kill them) and picking out the pieces we personal feel are relevant to make our case.
Of course you are not "the evil" in the world. But I don't believe I implied that. You are my sister or brother in Christ. What I meant to imply is that a lot of my non-Christian friends want little to do with Christianity because they have valid, multifaceted, delicate, complicated questions, and when the only response is a couple of choice verses thrown in their face, they're turned off. They feel invalidated.
The Bible has WAY more answers than we give credit for. YES! And Christ is most certainly revealed through Scripture. But there is nothing thoughtful about typing in "homosexuality" in BibleGateway.com and expecting God to speak through the search results.
Forgive me, this doesn't sound very gracious. Part of this is coming from the fact that the last time I engaged on this string was back in January.
I think your questions and comments are important because they reveal a very common worldview (or maybe "Godview") which isn't BAD or WRONG but certainly different from my own, and in practicality, not constructive or meaningful for a lot of nonbelievers I know and love.
I appreciate you being here, and I'm curious about your background, church affiliation, etc...
Feel free to e-mail me directly any time too!
ChildofGod,
Are you willing to drop your label as "Christian?" If you're in the US, are you willing to drop your label as "American?"
Sin or not sin (and I have my own thoughts on "Americanism") someone who is Gay may have fought through so much hatred and predjudice over their lifestyle: how could we BLAME them for identifying themselves as such? I have a friend who was disowned by his family for being gay. Do I agree with his lifestyle? Not necessarily (I'm not going there right now) but I affirm that he has been deeply hurt and wounded by those who should have loved and supported him. When we attack someone for something, it is usually human nature to identify themselves all the more, by it.
There was no Palestinian people group until the US and Israel created a refugee nation there.
We label because it's human nature to do so. We label because we are broken.
You are so right, we are all Children of the Most High. But we are broken too...
No, I did read all the post and I am sympathetic to people who are homosexual. I just feel like your talk actually stagnates these people in trying to justify what they are doing. And worry that there desire to remain in homosexuality will push them away from God. Because when I truly turned my life over to God I was confronted with the relization that he might ask of me something I would find hard to do or impossible. And I believe we all fear that. But after that decision I came to be able to allow God to change me to what he desires. And he did not desire me to be gay.
Yes i would drop it like its hot. I never labeled myself a Christian. And No I can't drop the fact I'm an American. I was born here. I'm talking about the internal labeling of people in themselves. Not what others are calling them.
And what was this about:
"There was no Palestinian people group until the US and Israel created a refugee nation there."
What are you talking about?
Child-of-God, thanks for the reply. Glad you'd "Drop it like it's hot" (listening to a little Dirty South Hip Hop lately?).
At the end of World War 2 the United States helped create the geographic area that is now Israel so that the long and dreadful diaspora of the Jewish people could end in their homeland of origin. That's a good thing.
The unfortunate consequence was the reckless DIS-location (they were not effectively RE-located) of the people who are today, Palestinians.
A critique many ultra-zionist Christians and Israelis make is that it's ridiculous to talk about making a nation state for Palestine since they were never a nation before. But that's a defeating, pointless argument, not because it isn't true but because it isn't helpful. The reality is, a nation was created by the shared experiences and struggles of the Palestinian people.
And to clarify, I'm not anti-Israel, I'm just simultaneously pro-Palestine.
Anonymous, thanks for sharing your heart. I really do value what you're saying here. I've just seen so many hurting people unnecessarily heart more by people supposedly speaking "truth." What they really needed was comfort, love, and a safe place to BE.
I don't think the "sin" question is unimportant. I simply think we rush to it before a lot of other necessary work (and love) is done.
I also realize that one person like yourself might be immediately convicted by something. But there may be someone else who is immediately convicted by his or her drinking, drug use, violence... any number of things.
I think if God convicted a believer of EVERY unhealthiness in life, they would crumble. That's why things don't always occur to us early in our walk, but we are convicted later - it's a refining process.
U No thats a great answer for Me to hear!
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